I feel the need to post this in light of the recent discussion taking place and the spin-offs related to it. I've only been in this group for a year now, having taken over my school's Quiz Bowl program this fall. It is my fourth year though, both high school and college, playing in tournaments, so please don't write me off as unexperienced. I'd like to bring a different angle to this discussion, something that we, as a team, find important to our participation in Quiz Bowl. This question about Trash, while an on-going issue, suggests deeper questions then just whether or not Trash and pure academic tournaments can get along. I agree with Sean Phillips on his points about the legitimacy and importance of TRASH to the competition as a whole. But I have a greater concern beyond that- about the exclusivity of tournaments and the program. First of all- and I'll admit, I am unfamiliar with the situation that is being discuused- why do we not celebrate the fact that there are in fact two tournaments being run simultaneously, instead of griping about one impacting the other. If they were two similar tournaments, I could understand not wanting to run two ACF tournaments in the same region, but one appeared to be academic and one TRASH. This diversity should be good for competition as a whole, not a drawback. For young teams like ours, always looking for the right opportunities to be competitive, having the option between a TRASH tournament and an academic tournament is a great benefit. Who's to say a school can't send a team to both either? The simple fact that there is enough interest to run two tournaments on the same weekend, even if its in the same area, should be something that we collective applaud- because while it may decrease attendence at one tournament, it will likely increase attendence overall between the two tournaments and get more players interested in attending a tournament that weekend. As for packet quality, I will concede that packet quality would drop, but for those with a general concern over packet quality- and this is an entirely different issue- our team finds that packet writing is the one thing that is difficult to master- both because if your school doesn't have a tradition of packet writing, it is hard to pick up, and because most tournaments simply ask you to turn in your packets ahead of time for editing, and then the questions are either altered or dropped, but with little to no explanation of what reasoning was used. We try our best, but struggle both with meeting deadlines and a lack of constructive criticism. My greatest concern is that as a collective whole, academic competition, whether TRASH, ACF, NAQT, etc... is limited, for the most part, to those and by those who write the packets. The limitations on such subjects as philosophy, mythology, theology, economics, geography and other social sciences in general packet writing, while certainly having justification, oftentimes limits the people who get involved in playing tournaments. An economics major, or an engineer, or an art history major finds themselves at a bit of a disadvantage to an english major, simply on fundamental knowledge, considering only courses taken. We should embrace any diversity within the tournaments being offered, because it represents opportunity- a chance for more people to find something accessible to them in a tournament, that encourages more players to stick with quizbowl. I believe that we are best suited by encouraging quantity of players, because within quantity there is then space for high quality tournaments, for invitation only tournaments, for upperclassmen only tournaments that would then have the quality question writing many players seem to be looking for. The more people, the more diversity of tournaments, the more choice and opportunity. The importance of these things shouldn't be overlooked. I've taken a subject and ran with it, I apologize for the length, but I wanted to get the message across that in discussions like this we should remember that what will bring people to quizbowl is fun and enjoyment. Restrictions and limitations don't benefit the greater majority. Nathan Molteni Villanova University Quiz Bowl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Phillips" <allythin_at_...> Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:10 am Subject: [quizbowl] Re: Trash and its relationship to qb > <html><body> > > > <tt> > --- In quizbowl_at_yahoogroups.com, ater31337 <no_reply_at_...> wrote: > > > > > > I know it's far from the first time we had this debate, but > this > > past > > > weekend re-raises the question of whether there still is (and > > should > > > be) any viable connection between academic quiz bowl and trash. > > > > I think it's funny that you choose to term this as a > "debate" > > because anytime some permutation of this topic comes out it really > > just becomes a screaming match. > > > > > > > While I wasn't directly harmed by Cancel Bowl's disruption of the > > > Brown tournament, I am speaking out because I think it sets a > > > dangerous precedent. It's always been a tacit rule on the > circuit > > that tournaments (regardless of academic or trash status) should > > > respect each other's scheduling, and Cancel Bowl basically > raised > > its > > > leg and urinated on that rule. > > > > > > I'm not here to pile on Mr. Coen, whom I've met in the past > and got > > > the impression he was a perfectly nice guy, nor make any > > accusations > > > of malice, but it's simply disrespectful to step on the toes of > > > another tournament, even if it's an innocent mistake, and > refuse to > > > budge when the mistake is pointed out. I know someone like > myself, > > Jerry (who actually did bend over backwards to accomodate this > > > intrusion on his tournament), or any experienced academic > > tournament > > > director would have graciously tried to move or work > something out; > > > should we not expect trash tournaments to abide by the same > > standards > > > anymore? > > > > See my response to Matt via hasty generalizations; unfairness to > > people who play trash for imputing blame for this guy's actions etc. > > > > > If so, that segues into my question of why trash should even be > > > considered as part of quiz bowl. At this point the common > thread > > of > > > questions, answers, and some sort of recognition machine > doesn't > > even > > > make sense anymore, or else we'd count pub trivia as quiz > bowl > > (which > > > apparently at least some "quiz bowl" teams prefer > to the actual > > > academic quiz bowl that defines the activity). > > > > > > If the message from this past weekend is that trash > organizers > > don't > > > have to play by the same rules as everyone else in quiz bowl, > is > > there > > > any reason why trash players (and I mean the people who only play > > > trash and the occasional NAQT high school tournament, not > people > > who > > > actually write packets and attend academic tournaments as > well) are > > > still considered part of the circuit, given deference in their > > > tournament scheduling, able to use the same public resources > (e.g. > > message boards) and university resources (e.g. school funding and > > > hosting space for tournaments; as I imagine you're much more > > likely to > > > get support in the name of college-level academic competition > than > > in > > > the name of joining a bunch of bored, out-of-school 35 year > olds in > > > answering non-pyramidal questions on 1970's sitcoms and last > week's > > hot radio singles)? > > > > You've basically defined quizbowl as anything above NAQT SCT level > > and ACF. This narrow exclusionary view is short sighted as it > > encourages less participation in the activity and remarkably > > offensive. Instead of trying to push trash players to the back of > > the bus, perhaps you need to take an honest assessment of who > > actually plays these things. They are not "bored, out-of- > school 35 > > year olds (sic)" but quite a few of them are *GASP* college > age and > > *FAINT* damn good on questions that really have nothing to do with > > 1970's sitcoms that don't air regularly on Nick at Nite or TV > Land. > > By the way: syndicated reruns, look into them. > > > > > I don't know, it just seems that academic and trash > tournaments and > > > players inherently seem to be at odds, especially given the > way in > > > which the broadest attempt for both factions reach out, the ACF > > > Fall-TRASH Regionals partnership, turned out to be a mutual > > > disappointment. > > > > I don't see trash people starting anti-academic threads in here, > so > > it seems that the two sides are "at odds" whenever > yourself or > > Weiner or someone else gets their panties in a twist about > something > > somewhat contained and then broadens it into something its not. > > > > >I don't hate trash by default; I enjoy it when well > > > done (i.e. when people who aren't TRASH and can/make the > slightest > > attempt to write questions even minimally approaching today's > > circuit > > > standards are running things, but that's another diatribe), > but it > > > seems to make more sense to keep it separate from college > quiz bowl > > > and let the people who want to do academic do their own thing > and > > the > > > people who want to do trash do theirs (either through their own > > > private funding and organization or as part of a distinct > > > trash-specific university one) and the people who want to do both > > > bounce around between two different entities on their own > time, > > rather > > > than try to force this uneasy coexistance. > > > > > > > Again the only people uneasy with this "coexistance" is > you. And > > that's by and large because of your own snobbery which none of us > > should have to take responsibility for. > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > </tt> > > > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> > > > > > <div style="width:500px; text-align:right; margin-bottom:1px; > color:#909090;"> <tt>SPONSORED LINKS</tt> > </div> > <table bgcolor=#e0ecee cellspacing="13" cellpadding="0" > width=500px> > <tr valign=top> > <td style="width:25%;"> > <tt>School education</tt> > </td> > <td style="width:25%;"> > <tt>Organization</tt> > </td> > <td style="width:25%;"> > <tt>Student</tt> > </td> > </tr> > <tr valign=top> > <td style="width:25%;"> > <tt>Pre school education</tt> > </td> > <td style="width:25%;"> > <tt>Quiz bowl</tt> > </td> > <td style="width:25%;"> > <tt>Irc</tt> > </td> > </tr> > </tr> > </table> > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> > > > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> > > > > <div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;"> > <hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;"> > <tt>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS</tt> > </div> > > > <ul> > <tt><li type=square> Visit your group "quizbowl" on the web. > </tt> > <tt><li type=square> To unsubscribe from this group, send an > email to: > quizbowl-unsubscribe_at_yahoogroups.com > </tt> > <tt><li type=square> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of Service.</tt> > </ul> > > > <div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;"> > <hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;"> > </div> > </br> > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> > > > </body></html> > > > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0: Sat 12 Feb 2022 12:30:48 AM EST EST